Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

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Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Psychobabble on Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:29 am

98.2%. That's how close we were to beating T2 disease under challenge mode DPS conditions. That's seriously, seriously close. And as I said last night, if we hadn't had so many annoying technical issues which slowed us down greatly during the night, we would have had time for another attempt and I"m very confident we would have got it. our group last night was very capable of winning that fight - 8k morale at the end out of 440k is absolutely nothing. It's literally an extra 2s of our group's DPS.

I thought last night was really positive personally. Trash was a real wakeup call but we got better and better each attempt, made some strategy adjustments (some which worked, some which didn't) and ultimately found a way through. The trash in OD T2 is no joke and we did well to clear it and it'll get cleaner in future attempts. There was a learning curve there on both cc and being absolutely on top of clearing diseases and the lessons we learned there will be useful in later wings too.

The boss fight, we got Talas in on short notice because we weren't sure about Bainin's availability (he's very busy in real life) and while his char needs work gear wise I thought he did a fine job and in the end, on the attempts which weren't sabotaged by lag, survived basically as long as Earval - except right at the very end when he got stunned while out of healing range and as a result got murdered (my bad). Healers did a great job as always, both the trees and lurkers hit darn hard on T2 and you did a great job to keep our two tanks in each group alive. I don't know about the rest of you guys but I"m pumped to go back in there on Sunday and win that fight, we totally can imo and that's a big step forward for the group.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  navalor on Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:49 am

Windows stole my bandwidth, after I logged out last night it was still automaticaly downloading updates and when I shut down it installed a dozen of them. the last portion of the the fight i was hearing calls for heals in teamspeak from both ptp & dewgong , dewgong even was saying he was down again, yet on my screen i still had his morale at half and ptp at full. the lag went crazy and i could only heal from almost screenshots, no real time in the end, which is annoying because i never usualy suffer lag & unfortunate because like the others I felt that run was incredibly close to success.



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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Jtime on Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:21 am

We were so close i could smell it. I want to go back in there and finish what we started tomorrow :-D

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Psychobabble on Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:13 am

one other thing - in future if someone gets a hard disconnect like Dec did last night, we will wait a minimum of 15min before changing group composition. I thought we had waited that long but he assures me it was 10min. It's a big decision to make so it's important we give people time to get back.

I've also given my mobile phone number to Dec in case such a circumstance arises again (which it hopefully won't, apparently some workers disconnected a connection in his building). If anyone else wants to have it in case they drop so they can communicate with me then just send me a PM on the forums.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Psychobabble on Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:04 am

So I think last night showed why we are so keen to raid with two cappies lol. Just to show how much of a difference they make, the group with the captain in it only had 2 dedicated DPS classes (hunter, RK) and yet was able to out-DPS the other group which had four classes capable of doing top tier single target damage PLUS a minstrel buffing their melee damage.

The other thing the second captain does is give us a huge margin for error in a number of ways - primarly an extra two combat resses and a big increase in group healing (both from regular off heals and from strength of will which, when traited, gives the whole group +4% or +5% incoming healing). The bottom line is that while it is possible to beat the OD T2 fights without two captains, our group at this stage of its development requires two captains to be able to pass these fights. Due to time zone and personal issues affecting our captains' availability, this means that we are unlikely to hit tier 2 again in the next couple of weeks, at least until we get a bit more raid practice under our collective belts.

And this is the main theme I'd like to bring up - the group needs more raid practice. In the way this game is designed, there is something unique about raids. By design, raids have much less margin for error than all other smaller group content, in all sorts of ways, and the only way to get used to performing under the pressure situation that raids put you in is by raiding. I'm not being facetious here, our group would literally get more benefit out of doing the level 50 rift raid than by doing 6 man gearing runs at this stage. There seems to be a real resistance within the group to doing raids simply for the sake of getting raid practice, most notable in the general attitude towards DN. But in all sorts of little things we saw last night, we as raid leaders can really see that the group is lacking in that sort of decision making under pressure and these skills can only be learned by experience. I know it might be difficult at times to see the correlation between doing an under level raid like DN or even the Rift but if you think back to our initial experience going into OD it should make the benefit of just raiding clear - the first times we went into OD wound wing we just got demolished by it, time and time again. So we stepped back and did a raiding progression of helegrod -> DN -> watcher and then went back in and cleared the wound wing on literally our first non-lag affected attempt. There is more than just mechanics that need to be strategised and 'solved' at work in raids, there is a type of pressure and decision making response require that Turbine ONLY puts inside raids. Once you figure the base mechanics out in 6-mans, even the very hardest ones like SG and SS T2, they become really simple fights and you can get through and farm them even with sloppy play. That is not true of raids, raids have a much thinner margin for error and things can go wrong very quickly, they require a different level of concentration and skill and it's this that we, collectively, need to develop.

One other thing that we also need to work on is individual analysis of the fight and how the strategy applies to your class individually and how you can balance and use all of your skills in response to what's going on. I'm not going to give examples here because they were brought up either in group chat or individually on the night, but there were quite a few examples where people weren't using all the little tools at their disposal to help us get through the different phases in those fights which collectively adds up to quite a big difference. The issue is that, as raid leaders, we only have so much knowledge of how your class skills and traits work and we also have only so much ability to chase up every use of skill and shot rotations so we need to have everyone analysing how and where to best use their skills, traits, cooldowns and consumables to help the group win the fights.

I'll give one little personal example. LMs have a skill which is a high damaging attack on a 5min cooldown which is also a 6s AOE stun. My initial strategy has been to use that at the start of the fight, while oathbreakers is up, to do a bit of burst damage on the tree and then it'll be off cooldown by the end of the fight for more tree damage. However, I realised last night that it was more valuable for me to save that up for the add phases to give me the option of stunning the bog lurkers at a time when the tank was getting low on health to give the heals some time to catch up - the few seconds of no incoming bog lurker damage adds up to quite a lot of healing given the damage they are dishing out. Anyway, it's little stuff like this that can all together make a big difference, we should all hopefully be thinking an analysing the fights in this way.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Jtime on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:40 am

/signed babble.

At this stage i feel like we've hit a bottleneck. The leaders have done as much as they can to try and give the group enough information to complete encounters and pulls but people are relying to heavily on us for every snippet of rotation ideas, what skills to use when, gear improvements that have been ignored, when to breathe etc. If we want to be successful at a tier 2 level in OD we need everyone exercising alot more INITIATIVE. At this stage we will revert everything to tier 1 to practice and try and let everyone in the group find those skills - this is something that can't be coached out - each player needs to develop their own level of initiative to know the demands of a critical situation - so it's all very individual.

Also one pet annoyance i've noticed in raids is our tendency to hunt for individual blame in a wipe. This is not a good habit to get into. Alot of the finger pointing looks at the final link in the chain - but quite often the group as a whole has made a number of mistakes that has lead up to the breaking point. In this raid type environment it's the TEAM that causes wipes, and it's the TEAM that shares their successes, not just the individuals.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Psychobabble on Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:06 am

Jtime wrote:Also one pet annoyance i've noticed in raids is our tendency to hunt for individual blame in a wipe. This is not a good habit to get into. Alot of the finger pointing looks at the final link in the chain - but quite often the group as a whole has made a number of mistakes that has lead up to the breaking point. In this raid type environment it's the TEAM that causes wipes, and it's the TEAM that shares their successes, not just the individuals.
That's a really good point Ear. lots of cumulative actions lead up to the point where we wipe and it's very rare that one individual decision is the only thing which caused or failed to prevent a wipe.

whether people's morale bars are full or not isn't just the healer's responsibility, for example (although clearly the healer has to make some very important decisions about when, how and who to heal). Lots of classes have tools which can reduce incoming damage, either through constant debuffs or through aggro management or through 'panic buttons' like stuns and cc. Lots of classes have self healing too, the most basic being pots, but also things on longer cooldowns. Where and how we ALL use our abilities like this can make a huge difference.

An example of this (and not one which I either have or even could observe if it's happening across the raid, but just something I've thought about personally) - if you're not one of the primary heal targets and you take a hit which isn't enough to immediately threaten your life, but which would be enough for the healer to get nervous and throw a heal your way, you should really drink a potion or use a self heal if possible. Because if the healer heals you back up to full, that's a heal which isn't going on the main heal targets.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  DivineRapier on Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:53 am

I want to point out also that not getting enough heals can also translate to taking too much damage which means not enough defence/mitigations, which is clearly not the healer's fault. And that comes down to individual gears and traits. We all have a part to play as raids are a team effort. It may seem like a more obvious flaw on the healers' part but what ppl neglect is that we are not helping them out at all by not reducing our own incoming damage/increasing our own incoming healing...etc.

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self analysis

Post  Spogg on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:26 am

I have to admitted to my fault for breaking the mezzes twice on last run and the previous run also. I forgot to take off "Attack the nearest possible target" option caused us wiped many time. This will not happen again.

As my view in group 2. The group went quite well. I had to switch over to back up healing a bit. I didn't intend to take over Nav's role since he's main healer and he worked like so hard but as soon as a Warden can grab enough aggro from the wave, I assisted Ptp's target immediately. It was a bit overwhelming about hotkeys but I got them in control.

The run which under the limit of time to dpsing cause RKs couldn't pulled out their real dps much since we need to stack up at least a lightning buff (maximum 2) before launch the Epic Conclusion to have the most advantage of this skill. Overall of the fight. Rk shouldn't expect the most dps from Epic Conclusion under this circumstance. The limit of time will slow us dpsing thing. "Fall to our wrath" trait, In my opinion, this trait looks good but not fit for this fight. You will lose 2-4sec to dps for double up the stack of "Fall to our wrath" and "Fall to X."

I am talking about my view with capped at tactical critical and War-cry buff. According to my combat analysis log, 30 hits of Ceaseless agrument can give you decent numbers of dps in 60sec. Again, dps from RKs are very huge widely range and it takes times to build the buff(s) to getting one big gun. We can basically do 250dps without critical in first 20sec or we can do 960dps in first 20sec if we lucky.

These are the analysis of myself based on myself. Any suggestions or comments are welcome for the best run in future.

Spogg,


Last edited by Spogg on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Psychobabble on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:44 am

Thanks spogg.

To others reading this thread though, I should make clear that I'm not saying that people need to come forward and do what Spogg has done (unless you want to and are comfortable in doing so). I'm asking for personal reflection and performance analysis but I don't want people to feel pressure to admit to every little mistake they might have made.

As a rule, we don't want to create a culture of public, individual, naming and performance analysis - that creates too much unnecessary pressure and has the potential to just suck people's enjoyment out. From time to time the leaders will identify a particular performance related issue and chat with the people concerned about it, but that's our role, we need to be doing all we can to try to help the group out in that way. We will also make comments in threads like this about things relating to overall group direction and performance (eg. our initial themes were to do with consumables and pre-raid preparation, which have been addressed). While we won't be saying that our comments in these threads everyone, they're things we feel are important and widespread enough, and have relevance for enough of the raid group, to raise at a group wide level.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  DivineRapier on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:13 am

But on a brighter note, I have to say the trash pulls went much smoothly than Friday. That's certainly an improvement. We got just as close to completing challenge yesterday as we did on Friday so the difference in performance on both nights with different group combinations and members are equal and similar to Friday. I am sure we can do this given some time and practice.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Jtime on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:31 am

DivineRapier wrote:But on a brighter note, I have to say the trash pulls went much smoothly than Friday. That's certainly an improvement. We got just as close to completing challenge yesterday as we did on Friday so the difference in performance on both nights with different group combinations and members are equal and similar to Friday. I am sure we can do this given some time and practice.

It is no doubt an extremely bright note Divine! Let me put it into perspective

At present theres about 5 groups doing OD
- Us
- Mount doom camping trip (MDCT) (undermanned and pugging weekly)
- Resurgence (council of eriador reborn but without the MCDT players)
- Prism
- Valacirca

Out of those groups
only 2 have done trees on challenge, and 3 have done wound on t2. (they raid alot more than us and were established well before us). We can get wound on t2 i have no doubt. And disease t2 challenge has been within our grasp. we're right up there with the best of them.

Resurgence just spent the better part of 2-3 hours wiping on the first trash pull in disease on tier 2. It goes to show were part of a select group of players on this server that have the ability to tackle this truly end-game content!

...But everyone needs to heed the points raised in this debrief in particular!

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Psychobabble on Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:13 am

yeah, i'm sorry, because I was already writing stupidly long walls of text I neglected to highlight the positives that I did on the night.

The trash was obviously great, we worked out some issues with the CC (if you're reading this vas, it wasn't all about you on friday, I needed to trait +targets for my root in order to properly deal with both of the gnawers), the disease potting was 10x better and our calling and leadership on how to handle cc breaks and movement has really stepped up a notch.

We also had some really good shots at those bosses despite the fact that we had both a less than ideal class makeup and some people totally new to the group and instance. The phrase "learning experience" has negative connotations, but they're unjustified in this case because we got a lot of valuable experience and insight from this week's raid which will make us a stronger team going forward. You can't know where you need to get better until you find your limits, and we were pushing them this week which will help us greatly in the coming weeks.

What we're trying to do here is set up a raid group for the long term. I keep hearing that there's some hurry to get through and farm/gear up from this raid before Isen comes but i don't care about the level cap raise. I'm not doing this content because I want to get better gear show it off to everyone else, gear's silly and it always gets obsoleted whenever the devs want some more money. i'm doing this raid because i want the challenge of beating the hardest content that this game has to offer and i want the enjoyment of doing it with a large group of people from all over the place. OD is where the hardest content this game has to offer is at the moment, so I really want to beat it one way or another. When Isen is released, I assume it's going to have a new 12 person raid and that'll be the raid I want to beat but right now I want to make my character the best it can be to give the group the best shot possible of overcoming the challenge that is currently set before us.

And in the context of that, last night was invaluable experience.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Anthony on Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:22 pm

Psychobabble wrote:So I think last night showed why we are so keen to raid with two cappies lol. Just to show how much of a difference they make, the group with the captain in it only had 2 dedicated DPS classes (hunter, RK) and yet was able to out-DPS the other group which had four classes capable of doing top tier single target damage PLUS a minstrel buffing their melee damage.

That's actually not true. I'm sure having two cappies is great for other reasons (off healing, extra reses, etc) but that wasn't the reason for being out-DPS. I was never running at full speed, either holding back for hunter to get aggro or trying to transfer aggro after the hunter was revived. Otherwise, I'm sure my group could have matched, if not out-DPS the cappy group.

I realised late last night (yes, I sit in bed thinking about raiding Laughing ) that I made a couple of noob mistakes. One was obvious and I picked it as soon as I did it, in that I didn't get my sap colour back after a revive. My excuse, that was the first time I actually had ever been revived while the fight was still going on, usually I still alive for a reset and just run out or it's a total wipe. Even so, won't happen again.

My biggest mistake was that unlike the previous week, I totally forgot to hit my 'sound the attack' skill, a 3s stun which would have helped out the healer, as it would have taken damage off Ear for those 3s. I did it all the time the previous week, no idea why I totally forgot all about it, sorry all.

That aside, and like what has been said, the trash pulls went really well, so there were some very good signs of improvement and this stuff is meant to be hard.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Anthony on Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:34 pm

Spogg wrote:The run which under the limit of time to dpsing cause RKs couldn't pulled out their real dps much since we need to stack up at least a lightning buff (maximum 2) before launch the Epic Conclusion to have the most advantage of this skill. Overall of the fight. Rk shouldn't expect the most dps from Epic Conclusion under this circumstance. The limit of time will slow us dpsing thing. "Fall to our wrath" trait, In my opinion, this trait looks good but not fit for this fight. You will lose 2-4sec to dps for double up the stack of "Fall to our wrath" and "Fall to X."


Hey Spogg, are you aware of the consumable scrolls you can get that will push your attunement 3 ranks in the direction it's going. Meaning you can get to top damage all that faster and push out a EC in that first 20s.
Other then that, are you dropping some quick fire skills on the trees. I'm working on the theory that it would do more damage, even tho the short induction ones still mean you could hit a couple of lightning skills in the mean time. Something well worth testing on T1, treating it as if it is T2.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Anthony on Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:47 pm

Psychobabble wrote:What we're trying to do here is set up a raid group for the long term. I keep hearing that there's some hurry to get through and farm/gear up from this raid before Isen comes but i don't care about the level cap raise. I'm not doing this content because I want to get better gear show it off to everyone else, gear's silly and it always gets obsoleted whenever the devs want some more money. i'm doing this raid because i want the challenge of beating the hardest content that this game has to offer and i want the enjoyment of doing it with a large group of people from all over the place. OD is where the hardest content this game has to offer is at the moment, so I really want to beat it one way or another. When Isen is released, I assume it's going to have a new 12 person raid and that'll be the raid I want to beat but right now I want to make my character the best it can be to give the group the best shot possible of overcoming the challenge that is currently set before us.

I have a current theory about this, tho it's only one possible out come. The announced 24-raid with RoI will mostly be it, but what they will do is scale up OD to lvl75 and add new drops/tokens if you run it at 75. Sure, the new 24-raid will have the very top gear, but at 75, OD will still have some very nice gear and be just as hard then for lvl75 characters as it is now for lvl65's.
On a plus side of course, the basic mobs and how it all works will be much the same, making everything we do and learn now, still invaluable.

Of course I could be totally wrong, but either, I still want to beat OD.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Talas on Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:52 pm

After thinking about last night disease run and the change we have made to phase 1 so far...

I got another suggestion... (Warning this suggestion could waste an up to 2-5 mins of everyone's life if implemented)

Since now at the end of phase 1 we only have 1 Bog Lurker is it possible for the tanks to kite the lurker for X mins to wait for hunter cd on burn hot, cappy Oathbreakers etc... This will also allow time for LM to recharge everyone power, Ent goto War etc... This way we are able to let loose in both phase 1 and phase 2... Considerably increasing our DPS... and hunters can start each DPS phase with increased dmg threat.

Since Bog Lurkers run pretty slow and they do melee dmg, healing shldnt be much of a problem... And if needed LM can lay down sticky tar while Wardens can throw hampering spears to slow the lurkers even more.

I know winning like this might not be pretty, but a win is a win and the time that seems to have been wasted waiting on CD might actually help us gain time at the end of the day.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Psychobabble on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:47 am

@ant - due to the way shield brother/to arms and strength stance works, simply adding a cappy to that group would have increased not only overall damage output but given the hunter a significant lead on threat. Won't go into all the mechanics here, but that single change would have made all the difference.

@Talas - we kind of did that, but the issue is that during these phases the hunters can't generate extra threat on the trees but the healers are generating constant healing threat because of the tree damage. So we can't keep them going too long, already what we did on Sunday caused Dec to pull aggro. I'm also reasonably sure that the bog lurkers (like the LM pet) have a ranged attack when being kited but I could be wrong.

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Re: Ninety eight point two percent - OD disease T2 post mortem

Post  Anthony on Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:37 am

Psychobabble wrote:@ant - due to the way shield brother/to arms and strength stance works, simply adding a cappy to that group would have increased not only overall damage output but given the hunter a significant lead on threat. Won't go into all the mechanics here, but that single change would have made all the difference.

O'yeah, I have no doubt two cappies are a good thing for various reasons, I'm just saying that from comparing DPS, the group I was in with 2 Champs, burg and hunter, we could have easily matched the DPS output of the other group from a pure DPS point of view.

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