OD disease wing t1 13/5/2011 - Post Mortem

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OD disease wing t1 13/5/2011 - Post Mortem

Post  Jtime on Sat May 14, 2011 3:58 am

So another run and another pass of disease wing. congrats!

But again there's some things as a group we all need to look at!

This time around the trash pulls went smoothly and the tree's fight probably went backwards. It's disappointing we didn't have time to make wound wing. affraid

Please read this debrief and take note!

  • Potting Diseases: Particularly in the 3rd pull we were missing them again. As important as it is to focus in these pulls they will punish you more for not looking out for diseases as well. 3 signatures for every disease time out results in ALOT of extra pressure, particularly in pull 3 where margin for error is very low.
  • Consumables: Because people aren't heeding this warning. We've unfortunately ended up at the point where in future raids we'll be requiring a set amount of consumables before entry. There will be exceptions as to how this can be achieved (i.e. if you can't bring something you bring more of something else) - and why people may not agree with this. I wouldn't exactly call it fair that in group 2 last night that nasda had to use NINE hope tokens (they are expensive to make guys!). So most likely the leaders will be checking prior to each raid that people have their gear. Don't be afraid to cross-communicate with raiders so you can cross supply (i do this with the sinners) and not have to buy it all off AH!.
  • Setting up your toon: I'm not going to name names but i noticed that some our casters were using LI relics that increased block rating? and weren't really completely geared. It's important as we move into harder content that you gear your toons appropriately and also setup up their legendaries in terms of legacies and relics properly as well. At this stage in tier 1 it won't come with too great a penalty but going forward into more difficult content you don't want to be wasting your time on stat increases completely irrelevant to your class.
  • Reading the strategy before the raid!: It's important that before you go into raids you have read the briefs on that we have RESEARCHED and SUMMARISED for you. The officers are putting effort in for you so we can down this content, and quite frankly it's a slap in the face for us when it's obvious people haven't read anything at all. yes all the officers made errors at some stage last night but that's human error, and there's a difference between that and not preparing properly at all.
  • The crossover phase in trees: This was the phase that was constantly getting us and it only get's harder in tier 2. When the prompts come up only the tanks switch sides and all DPS switches to SINGLE TARGET attacks and continues whaling on that tree until just before the adds spawn. There should be no healing at (and just prior to spawn) (much harder for RK's). Hunters and other ranged dps need to assist the tanks with peelers in the cross over and the tanks pick up the arriving adds by focused aggro building/taunts. The target(s) that peeled will be the first targed DPS'd to avoid the issue of the ranged tree tank taking too much damage from 2 aggro'd targets. There is to be no cross healing tanks whatsoever as this completely jeopardizes the crossover which is done with minimal threat building.


Whilst i give blunt debriefs guys, everyone is entitled to your opinions. Please post away as well all need to learn going forward!

Jtime

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Re: OD disease wing t1 13/5/2011 - Post Mortem

Post  Psychobabble on Sat May 14, 2011 7:32 am

the biggest general preparation comment from my perspecive is that the time to get ready for a raid is not the time that the raid is meant to be starting. Chat to people to get consumables BEFORE the raid start time. and if you don't have a source of some of the counsambles say so! others are happy to help. Maybe people should use this post I put up, and also say there if you need a particular type of consumable because you don't otherwise have access to it.

Psychobabble

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Re: OD disease wing t1 13/5/2011 - Post Mortem

Post  Nasda on Sat May 14, 2011 2:55 pm

<unequips patience/subtly>

Success in a raid isn't always measured by, did you complete the area, or kill a boss. It's often measured by the fun the raiders had, coming together in a relaxed and friendly atmosphere, to do something they couldn't by themselves. Because after all, its not a job, if you don't enjoy the encounters, why do it?

There have been plenty of raids that involved plenty of wiping, and not one of them had the frustrated, heated atmosphere that this one did. The question is, why did that happen? I think there are 3 main reasons :

Preparation:

As has been outlined in almost every post mortem, of every raid. People don't buy/make/trade for consumables pre-raid. They don't work on their virtues. They don't work on their equipment. Unfortunately most people will try to get away with doing less work than they have to, in any game, or IRL, unless there is a penalty they do not like. What this leads to is casters turning up with block rating jewellery, others wearing crafted armour, and making the raid less effective than it could be. There is an arguement it's not that important in casual raiding, but I've seen a lot of posts asking to do T2. Thats a joke right now. Some members having to dish out 20-30 disease soups pre-raid, and others having to use 9 hope tokens. Delaying 11 other people 10 minutes at the raid start time, to 'go and farm potions' is beyond a joke.

Communication:

The communication in this raid was poor. Perhaps there was an assumption by the raid leaders, that since there was not the first time this group has tackled this wing, summarys/refreshers were not needed. I think they clearly were, since had been some days since your first run, things get forgotten, and mistakes were made. The comment, 'i won't bother explanining the pulls, because you don't need to know' was... not such a great thing to say to those who joined in as a personal favour to friends, to keep you out of glff.

Also. At a time when 2 raid assists need to be clearly heard by their groups, it's not a time for anyone else to be speaking. How many times did I look at TS, and find 4-5 others speaking simultanesouly? Although I realise most of this chatter was concerning the raid members that were not doing what they were supposed to be, it would have made more sense to either leave the pointers to the raid assists, or to talk about it between wipes, in more detail. Talking over the raid assists during the fight, and drowning each other out, did no one any favours.

Nothing pisses off British folk more than taking away their right to be heard and/or complain. The 30 seconds between wipes, when there was that much, was filled with 3-4 people talking over the top of each other. I know I tried a number of times to speak about those that died getting the sap colour back, as did Piano.. even in raid chat also. When the raid wipes a successant 5 times due to no one payign attention to your comments, it does tend to make one frustrated. As a side note, we were lucky to kill the trees in the final go, before they killed us. Since at least one person, STILL did not reget his sap colour post death.

More speed, less haste :

From start to finish, there was this feeling of trying to beat the clock. There was a comment at the start, about if we managed to clear this wing in good time, we could try another. Afterwards, there seemed to be an invisible timer hanging over everyone's heads, as we participated in a must complete this in X minutes. The minute everyone had been rezed, (I think there was one occasion when someone was still dead Razz ) there were the ready checks, and off we went again, bam bam bam.

I would definitely say many of the wipes on the trees could have been avoided, if a minute or two had been taken post-death, to voice why we faield that time, and what we needed to change. I'm not suggesting 15 minute kum-bah-yah and talks about feelings between wipes, but there's a lot to be said for hearing out people's problems difficultys with their roles, making sure they clearly understand what they need to be differently. After 2-3 wipes, it was clear which people were doing something wrong, and they continued to do the same thing wrong in successant wipes. It's not just a failure of them failing to take the intitive and change what they're doing.. it's also a failure to the raid leaders for not taking them aside, whether in private chat / IM and making sure they understand what they are doing wrong.

Part of that is due to the communication situation, and people drowning each other out. Presuming someone heard you though, was obviously not enough. Point in case would be the rk saying after 10 resets ' I didnt know I wasn't supposed to be cross healing ' .

In closing :

I talk a lot, its nothing new. Sadly, previous experience tells me that no one outside the raid leadership will read these comments, or make their own. Next raid, peoples' virtues and equipment will be the same, and no one will have consumables. I hope that the people asking for t2 raids, think twice before asking again.

I think it was quite clear that 3-4 people caused most of the wipes through their confusion, inexperiance or inadequatey. I won't point fingers, I'm sure you know who you are, and hopefully, the raid leadership is talking to you now to make certain you understand where you are lacking, and what you must do to improve.

As a small comparison, these are some requirements my kin has, before you can even sign up to a t2 raid ( and these must be checked by an officer)

"Must have ALL Virtues at rank 10. Gear must be as close to complete as possible, full armor sets,(helegrod or whatever is best for your class) legendary weapons with max legacies, extraordinary gems, jewelry top notch - paddocks, forochel bracelets etc, (Ril Mir and Textured Gold Ring not necessary). Bring 10m regen food, and vitality food(+55 crit version if possible) scrolls and hope tokens."

I can only hope the next raid goes better, because the feeling ' i wish i hadn't gone ' isn't something I am alone in feeling, and will cripple your signups if it isn't nipped in the bud.

Nasda

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Re: OD disease wing t1 13/5/2011 - Post Mortem

Post  Psychobabble on Sat May 14, 2011 3:11 pm

brutal nasda. brutal but true. trust me, we understand that leadership sets the tone of the group and we set the wrong tone. we are new at this too, and in every raid up till now we've gone in fresh just hoping to beat the content. as you note, here the attitude (wrongly) was different and we thought because the main part of group was able to clear it quite well on tue it should be even easier 2nd time round. bzzzzz. fail.

we will be setting clearer lines of communication and direction for future and working on raid atmosphere and the other things you rightly bring up.

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Re: OD disease wing t1 13/5/2011 - Post Mortem

Post  navalor on Sat May 14, 2011 5:06 pm

Thanks Nasda,

Being my first time into that raid I take responsibility for my contrubutition to the wipes, and discussed those aspects with Earval. The only complaint I have was that the raid itself was not articulated prior to and during as well as it could have been. im not saying there was no prep, I read the forums brought the items mentioned and shared the excess, I tried to visualise a never before done quest through written format, ts and google. Take the watcher the week before with PTP at the helm for example (same situation it was my first time in the watcher). plenty of instruction plenty of clarity plenty of joy, and the end result was far more productive and fun for all those involved. 35-40 min completion if i recall.

no one enjoys getting ganked over and over, no one enjoys the finger pointing, no one enjoys the burden of supply (sorry for your usage of hope tokens btw) no one enjoys the atmosphere, no one enjoys the fallout. At the end of the evening however we made it, the determination of those who had the paitence to compliment other players shortcomings shone through and it was rewarded.

Is there a definitive number of wipes before a raid becomes fruitless? 3 , 5, 9 ,12 ? i would wipe several times if it meant the objective was completed and the mode in how it was achieved completly sunk in, and thats the one thing I took from friday night. I now know what not to do, and it can now be demonstrated in the future because of the experience.

Find some Joy in the fact that your effort was much apprechiated, and hopefully next time you will see the results from those you helped carry.

Nav


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Re: OD disease wing t1 13/5/2011 - Post Mortem

Post  Psychobabble on Sat May 14, 2011 11:15 pm

hey nav, thats the opposite of what nasda's saying. fault doestn lie with you, fault lies with leadership for taking insufficient time to explain and analyse.

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