Proposed loot rule change

As we move towards Ost Dunhoth T2, we are planning to implement a more formal loot system for the most highly desired items, namely teal armour tokens and symbols of the eldar king (for crafting L65 first age legendary items). The system we are proposing is a ladder system and the basic principle is that everyone in the group will get one of these items before anyone gets a second one. The system won't work out that way exactly, given differing attendance, but that's the general rule behind it and we certainly think that it's both the fairest way of distributing loot and will also the best way to ensure that the whole raid group gets stronger from these loot drops.

The mechanics of the system are as follows. We will maintain two ladders, one for teal armour tokens and one for symbols of the eldar king. Whenever one of these items drop, they go to the person at the top of the relevant ladder and that person falls to the bottom. Everyone else on the ladder who is in attendance at that raid moves up a position on the ladder. People who aren't at that raid will maintain their position - you can NEVER fall down a ladder position.

Take this as an example. Lets say there are five people on the ladder in the following order:

1. A
   
2. B
   
3. C
   
4. D
   
5. E

A, B, D and E are in a raid but C is not. If a symbol drops, A gets it and the ladder now looks like this:

1. B
   
2. D
   
3. C
   
4. E
   
5. A

So A has gone to the bottom, C (who wasn't attending) stays in 3rd place and B is now at the top of the queue.

Initial position on the ladder will be determined by a /roll 1,000. In the somewhat unlikely event of a tie, we will do a re-roll between those players as a tie-breaker (raid leader rolls for an absesnt person in this scenario). To be eligible to roll, you must have previously attended at least four prior Aussiplayers ost dunhoth raids (so you are eligible to participate on your fifth Aussieplayers raid).

Because we will be adding people to the ladders over time, the intial ladder order and /rolls will be recorded for future reference and people who are added to the list will do a /roll 1,000 when they are eligible and attend an OD raid and will be inserted in the current ladder at the position that that roll would have put them in if they had been present at the initial roll.

If, for whatever reason, you wish to pass on a drop that you are otherwise eligible for, then you are permitted to do so.

FAQ

Why are you planning to do this?

One key reason is that random chance isn't the fairest way of dividing up highly desired loot both from an individual and group perspective. We were thinking about a situation where someone in the raid might get lucky and win a 3rd symbol of the eldar king before another player had got their first. Not only is that very unfair to the player who hasn't got a token, it also hurts the raid group as a whole because the group isn't getting better evenly. Also, with first age crafting items while all classes receive a significant raid-relevant benefit from their initial L65 first age item, they receive a lesser or even non-raid relevant benefit from their second and subsequent item (see discussion here). Thus it is important to the performance of the whole group that we spread symbols in a more even way that a simple /roll will allow.

Please note that as a sign that I am genuine about this system, I will be placing myself on the bottom of the elder king symbol ladder to start off. This is because I already have a level 65 first age book due to a lottery win so I already have the raid-relevant benefits which flow from that.

What about other random loot drops?

At this stage, they will remain free rolls for all attending raid members. Generally these items are class-specific enough that only a few people will be rolling on them so there is less chance of extreme unfairness. If we get to a point where we get a chance at looting the exceptionally powerful gold items which drop from the final T2 boss then we may consider a special loot rule for those items.

If I win one of the 'ladder' items, can I still roll on other loot?

Absolutely. People should not in any way feel obliged to pass on loot if they win a roll or are assigned a piece based on ladder position. This system is designed to ensure that loot is somewhat fairly distributed, people don't need to do anything extra out of some sense of fairness.

Do I have to use my 1st age symbol on my main raiding character?

Because these symbols are of benefit to the raid group as a whole, you are strongly encouraged to use at least your first symbol on the character that you raid with Aussieplayers most often, and to use it on the legendary item which will give you the most raid-relevant bonus (eg. if you are a minstrel, don't use it on your sword!). However, this is not a strict rule and we will not monitor what you do with your loot - at the end of the day it is your choice what you do with your symbol if you win it.

What if I don't have enough North-Men tokens to buy my armour piece?

This probably won't be an issue initially, but if you do not have enough North-Men tokens to buy the armour piece relating to a token you are in line to win and you don't have much of a prospect of getting it in the next few weeks (eg. you need an extra 250 tokens or something because you just bought a bunch of empowerment scrolls with your stash) then you are strongly encouraged to pass on armour tokens until such time as you are likely to be able to afford it so that the piece can go to someone who will be able to use it. You will maintain your ladder position if you do this. Again, however, this is not a strict rule and we will not actively monitor whether or not you are buying your armour pieces.

Why do you have to have attended four Aussieplayers raids before being a part of the list?

We wanted to preserve a balance between rewarding our regular attenders and giving people that help us out an appropriate chance at getting the big rewards.

Does past attendance count?

Yes. We have kept records of all of our OD raids since the one on May 10. Initial eligiblity will be determined from those records. Note that each night counts separately for the purpose of eligiblity here.

What about a DKP system?

A formal, numeric/auction based loot system is an administrative nightmare and also is only really needed if you need to use it as an incentive to get people along to your raids (because if you don't attend you basically get punished). We reckon we don't need to stick/carrot you guys with a loot system like that! Also it sends the wrong message that these raids are all about loot because so much effort goes into the loot system. While loot's obviously a part of it, and we do think it needs to be distributed fairly, we don't want to implement a complicated system with the potential for loot drama and gaming. We think the ladder system preserves the right balance.

We welcome any any feedback on this proposal. Unless it seems that the group is heavily against it though, we plan on implementing it this week (starting on the raid on Friday 17 June).

That generally seems fair enough and I know I've been at enough raid events

I guess my only question, tho this may make things too complicated, is that while one can pass on an item, is it possible to 'trade' a shot at one item for a chance to get another.

Basically, I have a feeling I'm likely to pass on the armour tokens (I still need to have a really good look at this, especailly from a T2 point of view), but I'm not sure just getting maybe 1 or 2 peices would be worth it before RoI shows up.

However, what I would really want is of course a symbol in order to craft a 1st age LI sword and there is an off-hand sword drop (I'm a duel weilder) that would be fantastic. There maybe a couple of other off-hand weapons as well, but as an Elf, I get a 2% damage bonus with swords, hence all I really want is the sword. I have no idea exactly where or when that off-hand sword may drop, but if i could get those two things, I'd be more then happy to pretty much pass on just about anything else (a few relics here and there would still be nice and rune IXP to level up the 1st Ager).

Note that there's going to be two ladders - one for symbols and one for armour tokens. So passing on an armour token will not get you any closer to getting a symbol. And all other loot will be our current master looter rolling system.

And the reason I propose to allow passing is because I don't want to force people to take loot if they don't want it - someone might not want to bother with the armour set at all at this stage, but might want to keep their options open later so they're not off the ladder entirely. I realise that it could lead to a situation where someone, say, wants the gloves and not the boots and so they pass on the first armour drop to get the second but that's a price we have to pay - and people doing that does lead to everyone else getting the initial loot faster (and that person might end up foregoing their drop for the week entirely if we end up not killing the later boss that week), so it balances out.

Also ant, the champ set is really really good even at 3 pieces so you might want to assess whether you want to get it .

Psychobabble wrote:Also ant, the champ set is really really good even at 3 pieces so you might want to assess whether you want to get it .

yeah I may, just need to have a much closer look at the two sets of T2 and what the set bonuses are. They from memory a lot of it is resists, which for the most part aren't of much use. From a raid point of view, I'd be swaping in and out the mitigations (acid, etc, I now have a fire set) so it mostly comes down to solo stuff and general instances.

I really hate complicated loot system rules. They make more work for you, piss people off and generally do very little to increase fairness.

You want to ensure people get 1 symbol each first? Fine. Make a list like you've been doing so far with barter tokens, and remind people pre-roll, who already has one (and is being asked to pass) and who isn't. Simple !

It might do wonders for regular attendance, if you let people know missing 1 raid, probably means they'll have to pass on the next 11 elder king symbols to drop.

There's only 14 weeks until Isengard. There's a small, finite number of symbols / armour tokens to be given out. Part of the reason people go, is the Chance, like a lottery winning, of coming away with something cool looking that improves their character. Knowing you have to pay to enter the lotto and pass away any winnings you may get, twice a week, for the next ten weeks until your turn comes up to win, is a different feeling all together.

Technically, if you also wanted to be fair, you would have to rotate out regulars to include the double classes we have in some cases. To ensure everyone got a chance at moving up the ladder, no matter who signed up first. I'm sure that wouldn't annoy anyone..

I'm sorry to be pissy. I guess just using the same arguments I gave to COE and co., just pushes all my buttons.

I'm more interested in the tokens ... for example I have the helm from the OD set but it's the normal one, to get the Unique version I would need another token of the same type.
Do I need to wait until everyone from the raid gets their own or I can do that after I get my Unique version? Because honestly I don't see the benefit for the raid (or me) in using the "crap" version of the piece ... and to wait 11 more runs to get to roll again on the token I think it will be very frustrating for everyone.

Thanks for the feedback so far guys.

@Dec

The purple token you got from T1, or any purple armour you may have bartered for, has no bearing on the proposed system. Whatever you have got up till now is completely ignored and irrelevant. The new system only applies to the T2 armour pieces - one drops in each normal mode T2 chest, two if we get the challenge condition.

As far as T2 armour pieces go, yes, you will need to initially roll against 12 other people and then cycle through the ladder before getting a second piece. but this gives you exactly the same probability chance of getting the loot as if we simply allowed free rolls on everything, except that a free roll system randomly benefits some people who get lucky with rolls and penalises others who don't get lucky with rolls. We can't create more loot (except by kiling more bosses!), this proposed system just puts everyone on an equal footing in terms of spreading the most desired loot pieces around.

@Nasda

First, this isn't just about OD, this is about putting in place a fairer system that will give better benefits to the raid overall than random /roll for the very most desired loot for future raids as well.

You want to ensure people get 1 symbol each first? Fine. Make a list like you've been doing so far with barter tokens, and remind people pre-roll, who already has one (and is being asked to pass) and who isn't. Simple !

In its effect, this is exactly the same system as what we are proposing. It would spread the loot out in EXACTLY the same way except that instead of a single roll at the start, there are multiple rolls over multiple weeks. So if you would support this, you should have no problems with the proposed system.

And what you suggest would actually create a more complicated system because you have to check multiple people's eligibility each time a loot comes up. So lets say we're a few raids in, and due to differing attendance we have people with a mix of 2, 1 and 0 armour tokens. First you need to look over your list of people with no tokesn, see if any of them are in the raid, see if they've won the piece in question before and then ask if they want the piece or not. If no one in that group is eligible, then you have do the same for all the people on 1 token. It's much simpler just to check the eligibility of the person at the top of the list and work down - the proposed system is less complicated than what you suggest.

And as I said, it's exactly the same net effect in terms of spreading the loot around, it's just that the /roll happens at a different time.

It might do wonders for regular attendance, if you let people know missing 1 raid, probably means they'll have to pass on the next 11 elder king symbols to drop.

Not sure what you mean by this. If you're suggesting that we SHOULD implement a system which meant that if someone misses a raid they'd go to the bottom of the ladder, I think that's a really bad idea. We don't need or want to motivate attendance by using loot as a carrot.

And if you're saying that the proposed system does this, then that's not rightAs it says in the text above (and maybe I should have put this in big letters and bold) People who aren't at that raid will maintain their position - you can NEVER fall down a ladder position. No one will be penalised for missing a week's raid under the proposed system.

There's only 14 weeks until Isengard. There's a small, finite number of symbols / armour tokens to be given out. Part of the reason people go, is the Chance, like a lottery winning, of coming away with something cool looking that improves their character. Knowing you have to pay to enter the lotto and pass away any winnings you may get, twice a week, for the next ten weeks until your turn comes up to win, is a different feeling all together.

If we are skilled enough to start clearing T2 in a serious way, we get a lot more than 1 piece a week that drops. It won't happen, but the armour piece ladder can theoretically cycle through every week with a full T2 HM clear. Also, there's lots of shiny jewelery, offhands and cloaks in the raid which will remain free rolls with no restrictions.

Technically, if you also wanted to be fair, you would have to rotate out regulars to include the double classes we have in some cases. To ensure everyone got a chance at moving up the ladder, no matter who signed up first. I'm sure that wouldn't annoy anyone.

Sorry, not sure what you're saying here. But I should clarify that ladder position is based on the player, not character. And we're not trying to micromanage everything, I'm not saying "DPS gets symbols first, primary tank gets them second, class X gets the most raid relevant bonuses from the armour set so they get a full set first". The proposal is a very broad brush approach.

I don't think this proposed system is as bad, restrictive or as complicated as you seem to think it is . I know you have an instictive dislike of loot systems, but allowing free rolls on symbols and T2 armour pieces isn't the best way to improve the strength of the raid group, nor is it fair to the poor person who's sitting there with 2nd age LIs while someone wins their third eldar king roll.

This SK system is very common in other MMO's that is casual-friendly and rarely creates problems. I'm all up for this system. It is a system that my previous MMO guilds have used before and worked.

I'm sorry to be pissy. I guess just using the same arguments I gave to COE and co., just pushes all my buttons.

This is nothing like CoE's loots system which reading between the lines was Kaluminati monopolizing who gets what symbols and tokens (The forums were publicly visible then)

I think it is a much fairer and balanced system than random loot roles and by nature also essentially has a built in tally of 'who got what' (someone goes to the bottom when they get something). We will maintain a list regardless to be sure nobody is doubling up out of turn.

While babble's post is the techincal representation of the system to explain it in simple words it works like so;
- Everyone who raids with us gets a random roll of 1000. Their initial number determines where they start on the ladder (higher numbers up top)
- After this the ladder functions like a queue the person in no.1 of their ladder will be able receive a drop if they want it, if not then no.2 and so forth until someone takes the loot.
- Once someone wins something they move to the back of the queue and everyone else get's a turn.
- You advance in the ladder by a) attending raids and b) when someone moves down from the top.

It really isn't technical at all and is much better understood when explained verbally rather than in written format.

I'm right behind this system.

Jtime wrote:While babble's post is the techincal representation of the system to explain it in simple words it works like so;

yeah, i'm a lawyer, sorry. verbosity comes with the territory. sue me

Can you clarify a few things:

If a new player becomes eligible for rolling this week he rolls 1000 which is the highest anyone has rolled before does he technically jumps straight to the top of the queue? Thus effectively pushing the current ladder leader to second? or will the second player gets push to third?? If so, then it is possible to lose ur spot in the line.


Another scenario which I would like clarification is for example:

Current Week Token: Boots
Next week Token: Armour

Current Token Ladder:
1) Tom
2) Jerry
2) Felix

Say for instance, the current ladder leader Tom see's that this weeks Raid is for the Boot Token which he does not want and sees that next week it's Armour which coincidentally Felix wants also so he chooses to not attend the raid this week so Jerry will get the boots and he will auto retain his top spot the next week. Meaning Felix will lose his chance at getting the token even though he has attended every raid. How will this be resolved? is it tough cookie for Felix.

Other than those two clarifications I am happy with the new looting system.. At least it means those unlucky few like (Dec and I) will actually win something eventually! =D

Talas wrote:Can you clarify a few things:

If a new player becomes eligible for rolling this week he rolls 1000 which is the highest anyone has rolled before does he technically jumps straight to the top of the queue? Thus effectively pushing the current ladder leader to second? or will the second player gets push to third?? If so, then it is possible to lose ur spot in the line.

yeah sorry, that comment was in the context of missing a raid. You won't lose your spot because of missing a raid.

People who roll in after the initial setup are put in exactly the same position as those that initially rolled in, they get a chance to roll against the other players to determine their starting spot. It means everyone enters the system on an equal footing and avoids a lot of headaches, particularly initially.

...
Say for instance, the current ladder leader Tom see's that this weeks Raid is for the Boot Token which he does not want and sees that next week it's Armour which coincidentally Felix wants also so he chooses to not attend the raid this week so Jerry will get the boots and he will auto retain his top spot the next week. Meaning Felix will lose his chance at getting the token even though he has attended every raid. How will this be resolved? is it tough cookie for Felix.

As I said in my comment about why we're not moving to formal DKP - this is not a system which is designed to reward, punish or motivate attendance (unlike a numeric/auction based DKP system). If our raiders are solely motivated by loot (which i don't believe they are) then this system can be 'gamed' to an extent.

However I will note that raids will have multiple tokens drop, and it's often unclear until we go in which tokens we will get. Also Tom in your example forfeits his ability to either get a 1st age symbol or move up in the ladder for those items. So there's some check on this sort of behaviour.